Devuan bug report logs - #496
devuan-project: request to fork speech-dispatcher package from debian

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Message #5 received at submit@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Package: devuan-project
Severity: grave
Tags: a11y
Justification: renders package unusable

This is a request to fork the speech-dispatcher package from debian,
and modify speech-dispatcher's configuration.

-- background:
There are two methods to access a devuan system with speech output.
The first method is to use the text console.
On a devuan system installed with accessibility, the text console is accessed
through the speakup screen reader, espeakup, and espeak/espeak-ng.
The speakup screen reader is part of the linux kernel.
Since speakup lives in kernel space, it cannot access a software speech
synthesizer like espeak directly.
On a devuan system installed with speech output, the connector between
speakup and espeak is a piece of software called espeakup.

Espeakup monitors speakup for text to be spoken, and uses
espeak to process the text for speech to be output through the sound card.
The espeakup program uses ALSA to access the sound card.
ALSA is used so that espeakup has a minimal number of dependencies,
and so that those who don't want to use pulseaudio aren't forced to do so.

The second method to access a devuan system with speech
is to use the orca screen reader at the graphical console.
To produce speech output, orca uses a program called speech-dispatcher.
The aim of speech-dispatcher is to accept text to speak from
multiple clients, and pass it to one of multiple speech synthesizers
for speech output.
The speech-dispatcher program can output speech to a sound card in multiple
ways, or it can even output speech over the network.

On a devuan system installed with speech, the speech-dispatcher
program inherited from debian uses pulseaudio to drive the sound card.
Since pulseaudio doesn't autospawn on devuan,
this means that speech-dispatcher by default
can't output speech to the sound card.
This in turn means that users don't get speech at the
graphical console
in devuan 3.0 by default.
Users do however get speech at the text console,
since as I mentioned above, espeakup uses ALSA to output to the sound card.

In debian pulseaudio is autospawned by systemd, so the opposite is true;
users have speech at the graphical console, but not at the text console,
since pulseaudio holds the sound card, preventing espeakup from accessing the
sound card through ALSA.

-- proposed solution:
The solution I'm proposing is to fork debian's speech-dispatcher
package, and change speech-dispatcher's configuration
so it uses libao instead of pulseaudio by default for speech output.
As long as devuan's default is not to autospawn pulseaudio,
this means that both espeakup and speech-dispatcher
will use ALSA to drive the sound card.
This in turn means that users requiring speech output in devuan
will have it both at the text and the graphical consoles by default.

If devuan does however change to autospawn pulseaudio
by default in the future, the change I'm proposing
means that users would not have speech at either text or
graphical consoles.

Configuring speech-dispatcher to use libao for output is done in the
/etc/speech-dispatcher/speechd.conf file.
In that file, the line which reads:

# AudioOutputMethod "pulseaudio"

should be changed to read:

 AudioOutputMethod "libao"

This change is also suggested in the troubleshooting
section of the debian accessibility wiki.

I'm planning to fork and maintain the speech-dispatcher package for devuan
once I'm able to take on that responsibility, assuming no one does so first.
There are other ways to fix this situation.
However, the method I'm proposing is the most
straightforward, and should be welcomed by most users requiring speech output
at the text and graphical consoles.


-- System Information:
Distributor ID:	Debian
Description:	Devuan GNU/Linux 3 (beowulf)
Release:	3
Codename:	beowulf

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Message #10 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

The reasoning in the bug looked quite sound - what is the state of the
package?

Shall we close the bug as being done or downgrade it to wishlist?

cu

AW
-- 
[...] If you don't want to be restricted, don't agree to it. If you are
coerced, comply as much as you must to protect yourself, just don't support
it. Noone can free you but yourself. (crag, on Debian Planet)
Arne Wichmann (aw@saar.de)

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

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Message #26 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

No, speech-dispatcher hasn't been forked as far as I know; I certainly
haven't done it yet.

The inclusion of the debian-pulseaudio-config-override package in
Beowulf and beyond raises a problem. Forking speech-dispatcher relies
on pulseaudio being disabled by default. Uninstalling pulseaudio isn't
possible in every case, since at least xfce, and perhaps other
desktops seem to have a hard dependency on it. If speech-dispatcher
was forked with the changes I proposed, and pulseaudio was enabled as
the debian-pulseaudio-config-override package does, users would have
no speech in the GUI or the text console, making the problem worse.

The possible solutions I can think of are:

1. Don't install debian-pulseaudio-config-override by default, and
   fork speech-dispatcher with the changes I proposed.

2. Remove the hard dependency on pulseaudio from xfce and other
   desktops, and fork speech-dispatcher with the changes I proposed.

3. Don't fork speech-dispatcher, close this bug, and leave users who
   do a new install with speech at the text console, but not in the
   GUI by default until they manually resolve the situation, as is the
   case in debian right now.

Greg

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Message #65 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

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web site: http://www.gregn.net
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skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts.

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My apologies. Solution 3 should simply say:

3. Don't fork speech-dispatcher, close this bug, and leave users who
   do a new install with speech at the text console, but not in the
   GUI by default until they manually resolve the situation. Last time
   I checked, the situation in debian was opposite, fresh installs
   have speech at the GUI, but not at the text console. Also I
   apologize for the amount of mails my previous reply seems to have
   generated. I've edited the addresses this reply will go to.

Greg

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Message #70 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi...

begin  quotation  from Gregory Nowak (in <20210427021227.GA8134@gregn.net>):
> 3. Don't fork speech-dispatcher, close this bug, and leave users who
>    do a new install with speech at the text console, but not in the
>    GUI by default until they manually resolve the situation. Last time
>    I checked, the situation in debian was opposite, fresh installs
>    have speech at the GUI, but not at the text console. Also I
>    apologize for the amount of mails my previous reply seems to have
>    generated. I've edited the addresses this reply will go to.

This feels like a good solution to me. As far as I can see text-based
interfaces are easier for vision-impaired people. But I am no expert on
this.

I would further propose to open a bug at the installer to address the point
you just made.

cu

AW
-- 
[...] If you don't want to be restricted, don't agree to it. If you are
coerced, comply as much as you must to protect yourself, just don't support
it. Noone can free you but yourself. (crag, on Debian Planet)
Arne Wichmann (aw@saar.de)

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Message #75 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Hello.


On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:26:58AM +0200, Arne Wichmann wrote:
> begin  quotation  from Gregory Nowak (in <20210427021227.GA8134@gregn.net>):
> > 3. Don't fork speech-dispatcher, close this bug, and leave users who
> >    do a new install with speech at the text console, but not in the
> >    GUI by default until they manually resolve the situation. Last time
> >    I checked, the situation in debian was opposite, fresh installs
> >    have speech at the GUI, but not at the text console.
> >
> This feels like a good solution to me. As far as I can see text-based
> interfaces are easier for vision-impaired people. But I am no expert on
> this.

No, not necessarily. There are plenty of people who prefer to arrow and
tab through an interface, rather than typing commands.

Also, I'm starting to get confused myself, so let me clarify the
situation. If pulseaudio is running as is the case in debian, or if
debian-pulseaudio-config-override is installed in devuan, users will
have speech at the GUI, but not at the text console. If
debian-pulseaudio-config-override isn't installed, and pulseaudio
isn't running in devuan, users will have speech at the text console,
but not at the GUI.

> I would further propose to open a bug at the installer to address the point
> you just made.

I'm not sure I follow. Yes, we can modify the installer so that if an
accessible install is chosen by typing s at the boot prompt, the
debian-pulseaudio-config-override package will not be installed when
installing a desktop environment. However, this would still require
forking speech-dispatcher to give users speech at the text and GUI
consoles out of the box after a fresh install.

Greg


-- 
web site: http://www.gregn.net
gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts.

--
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

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Message #80 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

begin  quotation  from Gregory Nowak (in <20210429005552.GA3735@gregn.net>):
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:26:58AM +0200, Arne Wichmann wrote:
> > begin  quotation  from Gregory Nowak (in <20210427021227.GA8134@gregn.net>):
> > > 3. Don't fork speech-dispatcher, close this bug, and leave users who
> > >    do a new install with speech at the text console, but not in the
> > >    GUI by default until they manually resolve the situation. Last time
> > >    I checked, the situation in debian was opposite, fresh installs
> > >    have speech at the GUI, but not at the text console.
> > >
> > This feels like a good solution to me. As far as I can see text-based
> > interfaces are easier for vision-impaired people. But I am no expert on
> > this.
> 
> No, not necessarily. There are plenty of people who prefer to arrow and
> tab through an interface, rather than typing commands.

Category error: "text based interface" is anything you can do with a VT220
(or so), so arrow and tab apply. My point is about text vs graphics, not
commandline versus what Mike Gancarz[1] called CUI.

> Also, I'm starting to get confused myself, so let me clarify the
> situation. If pulseaudio is running as is the case in debian, or if
> debian-pulseaudio-config-override is installed in devuan, users will
> have speech at the GUI, but not at the text console. If
> debian-pulseaudio-config-override isn't installed, and pulseaudio
> isn't running in devuan, users will have speech at the text console,
> but not at the GUI.
> 
> > I would further propose to open a bug at the installer to address the point
> > you just made.
> 
> I'm not sure I follow. Yes, we can modify the installer so that if an
> accessible install is chosen by typing s at the boot prompt, the
> debian-pulseaudio-config-override package will not be installed when
> installing a desktop environment. However, this would still require
> forking speech-dispatcher to give users speech at the text and GUI
> consoles out of the box after a fresh install.

So it seems you are back at forking, aren't you?

cu

AW

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy#Mike_Gancarz:_The_UNIX_Philosophy
-- 
[...] If you don't want to be restricted, don't agree to it. If you are
coerced, comply as much as you must to protect yourself, just don't support
it. Noone can free you but yourself. (crag, on Debian Planet)
Arne Wichmann (aw@saar.de)

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

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Message #85 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On Mon, May 03, 2021 at 12:40:52PM +0200, Arne Wichmann wrote:
> Category error: "text based interface" is anything you can do with a VT220
> (or so), so arrow and tab apply. My point is about text vs graphics, not
> commandline versus what Mike Gancarz[1] called CUI.

I'll put this more plainly with no room for ambiguity. There are
plenty of visually impaired and blind people who prefer a graphical
user interface to typing commands at a command prompt.

> So it seems you are back at forking, aren't you?

I always was, since a couple of devuan developers suggested this is
the way forward. I've been thinking this through over the weekend. If
the answer to changing pulseaudio configuration is an override package
instead of forking pulseaudio from debian, then it makes sense to
override speech-dispatcher configuration instead of forking it from
debian. So, something like a debian-speech-dispatcher-config-override
package which would make the necessary changes to
/etc/speech-dispatcher/speechd.conf, and which would remove
debian-pulseaudio-config-override if it is already installed. If this
seems acceptable, I would have to read up on how to package for
devuan, and look at how we can integrate this into a freshly installed
system if an accessible install is being done. A comaintainer on this
would still be welcome.

Also, why the urgency to downgrade this bug to wish list, or close it?
Is the grave severity holding up the release of Chimerra? If yes, then
I'm willing to downgrade this bug to wish list status, so a record of
this issue is still in the bug tracker, until it is resolved in some
way. If grave severity isn't preventing the release of Chimerra, then
I see no reason why this bug can't simply be left as is until it is
resolved in some way.

Greg

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Message #88 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

I am away with very limited internet access. Sorry to be late 
commenting.

On Mon, May 03, 2021 at 04:05:53PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> I always was, since a couple of devuan developers suggested this is
> the way forward. I've been thinking this through over the weekend. If
> the answer to changing pulseaudio configuration is an override package
> instead of forking pulseaudio from debian, then it makes sense to
> override speech-dispatcher configuration instead of forking it from
> debian. So, something like a debian-speech-dispatcher-config-override
> package which would make the necessary changes to
> /etc/speech-dispatcher/speechd.conf, and which would remove
> debian-pulseaudio-config-override if it is already installed. If this
> seems acceptable, I would have to read up on how to package for
> devuan, and look at how we can integrate this into a freshly installed
> system if an accessible install is being done. A comaintainer on this
> would still be welcome.

Please note that the pulseaudio override is *not* present or required in 
chimaera: the issue it addresses in buster/beowulf has been resolved in 
bullseye.

When I am back, I will be happy to add a speechd.conf override package. 
That is precisely the idea behind the config override packages: to solve 
issues inherited from Debian without the overhead of maintaining forks of
entire packages.

Mark

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Message #93 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On Tue, May 04, 2021 at 02:18:13AM +0100, Mark Hindley wrote:
> Please note that the pulseaudio override is *not* present or required in 
> chimaera: the issue it addresses in buster/beowulf has been resolved in 
> bullseye.

OK, so it sounds like in chimaera pulse autospawns by default on
systems without systemd, such as devuan systems. If this is correct,
then is turning the autospawn feature off still possible? If not, then
what I'm proposing won't work.

> 
> When I am back, I will be happy to add a speechd.conf override package. 
> That is precisely the idea behind the config override packages: to solve 
> issues inherited from Debian without the overhead of maintaining forks of
> entire packages.

Great! I'm looking forward to working on that with you, and testing
it. I'm proposing to leave the status of bug 496 as is for now, until
we can collaborate on a workable solution.

Greg

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Message #98 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Greg,

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 10:13:41AM +0100, Mark Hindley wrote:
> Just a quick note to say I haven't forgotten about this,  and am still working
> on the best way of hooking it into the installer.


I have just built the devuan-speech-dispatcher-config-override package for
unstable and also a new version (3.68+devuan1) of the tasksel packages which
should pull it in alongside orca.

They should migrate to chimaera in 5 days and then be available in the next
testing iso build after that.

Hopefully, that will address the issues that you have worked so tirelessly to
understand. Many thanks for doing so.

Best wishes

Mark

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Message #103 received at 496-done@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Version: 2.0

Source package debian-config-override (2.0) added to Devuan suite unstable.

This closes bug report 496.

Thanks

DAK managing the Devuan archive

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Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2021 14:03:10 +0100
Source: debian-config-override
Architecture: source
Version: 2.0
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Mark Hindley <mark@hindley.org.uk>
Changed-By: Mark Hindley <mark@hindley.org.uk>
Closes: 496
Changes:
 debian-config-override (2.0) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * No longer experimental.
   * Target ceres/chimaera.
   * d/control: debhelper-compat version 13.
   * Remove debian-pulseaudio-config-override package.
   * New package devuan-speech-dispatcher-config-override (Closes: #496).
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Message #108 received at 496-done@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Version: 3.68+devuan1

Source package tasksel (3.68+devuan1) added to Devuan suite unstable.

This closes bug report 496.

Thanks

DAK managing the Devuan archive

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Format: 1.8
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2021 14:17:44 +0100
Source: tasksel
Architecture: source
Version: 3.68+devuan1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Devuan Dev Team <devuan-dev@lists.dyne.org>
Changed-By: Mark Hindley <mark@hindley.org.uk>
Closes: 496
Changes:
 tasksel (3.68+devuan1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Merge Debian 3.68.
   * Recommend devuan-speech-dispatcher-config-override wherever orca
     is recommended (Closes: #496).
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---

Message #113 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Thanks for the update Mark. I'll be on the lookout for a new netinst
iso in a week or so, and will test when it is available, and report
back. Thank you very much for doing the heavy lifting to get to this
point.

Greg

---

Message #118 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

Greg,

On Sat, Jul 03, 2021 at 05:29:27PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> Thanks for the update Mark. I'll be on the lookout for a new netinst
> iso in a week or so, and will test when it is available, and report
> back. Thank you very much for doing the heavy lifting to get to this
> point.

We have just built new installer and mini isos, hopefully with your fix for
#496. Perhaps you could test?

Installer isos are at
http://files.devuan.org/devuan_chimaera/installer-iso/. Dated 20210712. The mini
isos are at
http://deb.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-${ARCH}/current/images/netboot/mini.iso

Best wishes

Mark

---

Message #123 received at 496@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

On Mon, 12 Jul 2021 10:14:40 +0100
Mark Hindley <mark@hindley.org.uk> wrote:

> Greg,
> 
> On Sat, Jul 03, 2021 at 05:29:27PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > Thanks for the update Mark. I'll be on the lookout for a new netinst
> > iso in a week or so, and will test when it is available, and report
> > back. Thank you very much for doing the heavy lifting to get to this
> > point.  
> 
> We have just built new installer and mini isos, hopefully with your
> fix for #496. Perhaps you could test?
> 
> Installer isos are at
> http://files.devuan.org/devuan_chimaera/installer-iso/. Dated
> 20210712. The mini isos are at
> http://deb.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-${ARCH}/current/images/netboot/mini.iso
> 

Note that installer isos are also mirrored, which may provide faster
downloads, eg
https://sledjhamr.org/devuan-cd/devuan_chimaera/installer-iso/

Ralph.

> Best wishes
> 
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> devuan-dev internal mailing list
> devuan-dev@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-dev

---

Message #124 received at 496-close@bugs.devuan.org (full text, mbox, reply):

We seem to be well on the way to resolving this issue, and only minor
details still need to be ironed out. So, I consider bug 496 to be
resolved. A big thank you again to Mark Hindley for stepping up to
collaborate with me on resolving this, and doing the heavy lifting.

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