Subject: coreutils: key package depends on libsystemd

From: Andrew Bower <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2025 23:00:51 +0100

Source: coreutils
Version: 9.7-1
Severity: normal

Dear Devuan developers,

Since 9.7-1 and including 9.7-3, coreutils has depended on libsystemd.
This was added under pressure as part of https://bugs.debian.org/1080330
and discussions in debian-devel to enable 'who' to obtain current
longed-in user information from the seat manager, e.g. elogind, instead
of /run/utmp.

The Devuan project should consider if it wishes to fork this package to
avoid making every Excalibur installation necessarily include
libsystemd when it might not othewise have needed to do so

In #900 on Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 11:10:45AM +0100, Mark Hindley wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2025 at 09:06:10PM +0100, Andrew Bower wrote:
> > > I believe the original impetus to remove libsystemd linkage from procps 
> > > was to reduce libsystemd infiltration into 'core' utilities. 
> > 
> > I am all in favour of that ambition. I don't think the key
> > building-block packages should depend on libsystemd, hence my
> > disappointment when coreutils recently gained the dependency (should we
> > be forking that?)
> 
> Hmmm, yes, conceivably.

Raising a bug...

Andrew

-- System Information:
Distributor ID: Devuan
Description:  Devuan GNU/Linux 6 (excalibur/ceres)
Release:  6
Codename: excalibur ceres
Architecture: x86_64

Kernel: Linux 6.12.37+deb13-amd64 (SMP w/4 CPU threads; PREEMPT)
Locale: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8), LANGUAGE=en_GB:en
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /usr/bin/dash
Init: runit (via /run/runit.stopit)
LSM: AppArmor: enabled

---

From: Mark Hindley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 16:19:43 +0100

Andrew,

> Raising a bug...

Thanks.

I am pretty conflicted here. To me the real downside is that Debian's coreutils
has over 450[1] bugs. If we fork the package, in effect we inherit
responsibility for fixing them. That is pretty unattractive with the current
person-power available.

Needs more thought....

Mark

[1]  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?repeatmerged=no&src=coreutils

---

From: Andreas Messer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 17:39:50 +0200

> responsibility for fixing them. That is pretty unattractive with the current

Would we really need to fix bugs which are also present in Debian package.
As long as they are not fixed there, we're not worse than the Debian
version.

For me this dependency is very questionable too.

cheers,
Andreas

-- 
gnuPG keyid: 8C2BAF51
fingerprint: 28EE 8438 E688 D992 3661 C753 90B3 BAAA 8C2B AF51

---

From: Mark Hindley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 17:03:28 +0100

> As long as they are not fixed there, we're not worse than the Debian

True, but it is a measure that the package is in poor state that so many bugs
exist and expected Debian fixes seem optimistic.

> For me this dependency is very questionable too.

Yes, and for me.

I am having a quick look how easy it might be. There is no Debian VCS
repository, which is also unhelpful. Having to resort to gbp-import-dsc.

Mark

---

From: Andreas Messer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 18:13:07 +0200

> repository, which is also unhelpful. Having to resort to gbp-import-dsc.

I volunteer to maintain this package, if needed. However, I can not 
guarantee a "reaction time" when a new version is available since it
happens that I'm always busy with many different things which might 
be more important to me at the time.

cheers,
Andreas

---

From: Mark Hindley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 17:32:23 +0100

Andreas,

On Fri, Aug 15, 2025 at 06:13:07PM +0200, Andreas Messer wrote:
> I volunteer to maintain this package, if needed.

Thanks. I have assigned it to Devuan Developers so anybody is welcome to
contribute.

I have a version that removes --enable-systemd that I will build for
experimental.

Can you both test?

Thanks

Mark

---

From: Andreas Messer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:55:11 +0200

> I have a version that removes --enable-systemd that I will build for

Thanks! I will go for it during the weekend, planning to update to
excalibur anways.

cheers,
Andreas

---

From: Andrew Bower <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 22:08:52 +0100

> I have a version that removes --enable-systemd that I will build for

Thank you!

> Can you both test?

The new package generally works for me! (And the 'who' command behaves
as expected in the circumstances.)

Might be worth checking that it is actually possible to install a
libsystemd-free system now - I haven't done that.

I should say that the fact that I raised this bug doesn't mean I
definitely think this should happen - I think Devuan Developers have
more experience than I to make this call!

---

From: Mark Hindley <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 19:13:42 +0100

> more experience than I to make this call!

I am happy to try. Certainly Debian's coreutils looks poorly maintained. I have
had a quick look through the open bugs. Many may not be current.

I will deal with a few easy d/control aspects and upload to unstable with a view
to including in excalibur if we don't run into new problems.

Mark

---

From: Andrew Bower <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 22:33:53 +0100

> had a quick look through the open bugs. Many may not be current.

Hmm, the recent bug creation rate looks suspiciously like someone was
trying to find bugs to 'prove' that the Rust version was better than the
GNU C version, or something like that. Perhaps a new test suite was
targetted at it. I'm not sure that it would be entirely fair to blame
the Debian packaging for that.

That's not to say the bug reports aren't fair and due attention.

> to including in excalibur if we don't run into new problems.

I must admit I didn't spot any packaging-specific issue because of the
amount of the above type!

---

From: Andreas Messer <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 21:25:49 +0200

Hi Mark,

> I have a version that removes --enable-systemd that I will build for

I upgraded to excalibur today, worked flawlesly despite
mate-power-manager was uninstalled and not upgraded. (Just writing 
E-Mail from this machine). I have now installed coreutils 
9.7-3devuan2 and did not observe any issues so far.

cheers,
Andreas